Second Round Playoffs - Game #5 - Utah @ L.A. Lakers

[Longballer]

Originally Posted by CougarRebel

Baller, that's exactly my beef. Despite the fact they cost us a lot of points, we were still there at the end. The logical conclusion has to be that, if they hadn't cost a lot of points, we win the game. To turn your conclusion around, had there not been a difference in calls, they would have won despite their inability to block out...when they were being shoved in the back.

And I will tell you why I disagree with you here. 0ut of the 10 shots missed in the second quarter by the Lakers they were able to rebound 7 of them. That means that 70% of the time they missed a shot in that quarter they got the ball right back. And none of those were on push off fouls like the one in the 4th quarter. If you are on the road against any team it is those little things that are the difference between wining and losing. Can the refs affect a game. Yes. Can we control that as a team? NO. Can we box out and rebound, Yes, but we didn't last night nearly good enough. Can we control that as a team? YES. We can only change the things we can control that why I put this loss on us and rebounding because it is something that is in our control but something we didn't do.

Originally Posted by CougarRebel

Interesting, on TNT last night they were saying that Boozer has been too insistent on going inside and should be using his jump shot more. As for the rest of the team I agree. Because they get hammered every time they drive without a call, they are are taking a ton of jump shots and that is not their best game. The refs have forced them to rely on something other than their best game.

And I completely disagree with the TNT guys on this because Boozer jump shoot is just plain off right now. The best way to score if you are not shooting well is to take the ball to the basket and get some layups and get to the free throw line. The fact is if Boozer would go up with the strength that we know he has and with determination he wouldn't be getting blocked by people like Walton and Vuicic. He is going to the basket like a little girl not like a dominate Power Forward. That is what I am talking about when I say he needs to attack the basket.

[GridironJazzVike]

Originally Posted by pauleymon

Ok I'll take the bait!!! But please tell me why you think it is rigged and why there is a conpiracy against the Jazz by Stearn and the rest of the league.

But please if its the tired old "they only want the big TV markets to be in the finals" argument spare me because each one of San Antonio's rings pretty much pounds the stake in that one.

Actually it became apparent to me this year... Stern wants to market the most popular stars in the NBA... The Warriors beat the system last year because they made a lot of 3 pointers... Even the refs couldn't beat them with calls when they were doing that consistently during that series... But what happened when they played us in the 2nd round?? Those shots stopped falling, Sloan went in with a great gameplan to pound the Warriors inside and it paid off in a series where the NBA didn't care who came out of the series...

By the way.. Don't rule out the big market theory yet.. I just think San Antonios been too good to be denied for the most part, not to mention there were not any great "Big Market" teams that the refs could favor to beat the Spurs...

But what about that year when Dallas and the Heat met in the Finals?? What happened to San Antonio in the Dallas series?? If you want, I could post the FTs taken differential in that series...

It's no coincidence that the two biggest markets (The Lakers and Celtics) hold the most titles... Sure they had some great teams, but they got help along the way too... Why do you think the NBA is as prosperous as it is today?? Because those "Big Market" teams paved the way, and got a little help from the NBA in the process...

Sort of like the WWF... Sure you had some GREAT wrestlers in the 80s but if Hulk Hogan, The Macho Man, and your other big named wrestlers weren't "helped" along the way where would Professional Wrestling be today??

Now maybe that's a bad comparison but before you shake your head... What team won the 3rd most titles in NBA history?? The Chicago Bulls... Another pretty big market.... Coincidence?? I find that very hard to believe...

[Longballer]

Grid I hate to say it but I think you might be taking this a little to far. Do I think that the Lakers get some star treatment calls? Yes. Do I think the NBA wants bigger markets in the payoff games, ie the finals? Yes. Do I think that Stern really goes in and tells the refs that they better make one team win? No chance. And here is why. Down here were I live there is a multi billion dollar Industry called casinos. Now what do you think would happen to Stern and the NBA if one of those refs came out and said "yea the league told us to favor one team over the other." I wouldn't what to even think about the repercutions of that one.
If the Jazz take care of the things that they made mistakes on in game 5 they would have won no matter what the refs called. But when you get out rebounded on the offensive glass and turn the ball over 15 times in one half. You yourself made that game almost impossible to win. Why because those are the things you can control.

[GridironJazzVike]

Originally Posted by Longballer

Grid I hate to say it but I think you might be taking this a little to far.

My wife tells me the same thing.. And maybe you're right..

Do I think that the Lakers get some start treatment calls? Yes. Do I think the NBA wants bigger markets in the payoff games, ie the finals? Yes. Do I think that Stern really goes in and tells the refs that they better make one team win? No chance. And here is why. Down here were I live there is a multi billion dollar Industry called casinos. Now what do you think would happen to Stern and the NBA if one of those refs came out and said "yea the league told us to favor one team over the other." I wouldn't what to even think about the repercutions of that one.

Talking about casinos... Why do you think the Mafia got away with running Vegas the way they did for such a long time?? There had to be NUMEROUS people involved in that fiasco, but it didn't come down until YEARS later... Now the NBA is probably a bit of a smaller scale then that and as long as everybody is happy and making money, you'd be stupid to "blow the whistle" on anybody...

If you've got enough money, power, and resources to keep people "in line"... Trust me, you can keep a thing like this going a LONG TIME... Nobody wants to take on the Mafia do they?? No, and that goes for a multi BILLION dollar industry like the NBA also...

Is it coincidence that that the Celtics went 7 games with another big market in their own right, Atlanta?? How much more money does the NBA make if they favor Utah in this next game and the series goes back to LA for a Game 7?? We're talking about hundreds of MILLIONS of dollars for just 1 game!!

If the oil companies can justify the raping of the consumer as far as gas prices go... Then why wouldn't the NBA tip the scales a bit to push a series even further??

If the Jazz take care of the things that they made mistakes on in game 5 they would have won no matter what the refs called. But when you get out rebounded on the offensive glass and turn the ball over 15 times in one half. You yourself made that game almost impossible to win. Why because those are the things you can control.

This is true... But when getting hacked is one of the main reasons you're committing turnovers, you really can't control that either, huh?? If Korver comes around a curl and Fisher BODY CHECKS him just as Deron is delivering a pass to him in which no call is made and a turnover ensues... How do you control that??

If you're boxing out properly for a rebound and guys are climbing on your back and because of that no call, you give up an Offensive rebound, can you control that??

What if Boozer makes that patented spin move to the hole, the same move he's done time and time again throughout the regular season with no travel call, and gets called for traveling... Can he control that??

Do you guys realize how much POWER officiating has on this game?? Are you starting to understand where I'M coming from now??

[Longballer]

Its not that I didn't understand were you were coming from before. I know exactly were your coming from because I think a lot of those same thoughts. I still will stick to my guns when I say that the refs my change the game with there calls.But if the Jazz cut down on mistakes they win that game. You talk about getting fouled on turnovers. Fine I'll say that they got fouled on half of there turnover that didn't get called. What about the other half were we passed the ball out of bounds on a bad pass and so forth. and on the 7 offensive rebounds in the second quarter? OK they were over the back on 3 of them, (I didn't see any in that second quarter). What about the other 4. What I am getting at is that The Jazz gave up 14 point on Offensive rebound and 8 points on unforced turnovers in the first half alone. Thats a 22 point swing and the difference in the game. And the Refs had no bearing on those points. We can complain about the calls going against us but we did our part to lose that game. IMO

[GridironJazzVike]

Originally Posted by Longballer

Its not that I didn't understand were you were coming from before. I know exactly were your coming from because I think a lot of those same thoughts. I still will stick to my guns when I say that the refs my change the game with there calls.But if the Jazz cut down on mistakes they win that game. You talk about getting fouled on turnovers. Fine I'll say that they got fouled on half of there turnover that didn't get called. What about the other half were we passed the ball out of bounds on a bad pass and so forth. and on the 7 offensive rebounds in the second quarter? OK they were over the back on 3 of them, (I didn't see any in that second quarter). What about the other 4. What I am getting at is that The Jazz gave up 14 point on Offensive rebound and 8 points on unforced turnovers in the first half alone. Thats a 22 point swing and the difference in the game. And the Refs had no bearing on those points. We can complain about the calls going against us but we did our part to lose that game. IMO

You're right, we didn't help ourselves early in the game... You're right about that...

But when is the game won or lost?? In the 4th QUARTER... It didn't matter if the Jazz jumped on the Lakers because I guarantee the refs would have made sure they got back into the game... Too much money to be lost

Now Longballer, honestly... From quarters 1-3 I had NOTHING to ***** at BUT the Jazz's careless play because the officiating was pretty even... (however, aside from the 1st quarter, I think they played good during the 2nd and 3rd quarters), But in the 4th quarter it seemed like it didn't matter what we did, the calls went against us or there were non calls when our guys got hammered in the paint... How can you get into ANY rhythm with that going on??

Like you said... You're right, we didn't help ourselves early on, especially in the 1st quarter... But when that 4th quarter rolled around, it was just downright ridiculous!

[pauleymon]

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[CougarRebel]

I gotta say, using the phrase "assaults and rapes" is in pretty poor taste.

Why? We hear announcers, players and coaches say things all the time like "he got killed on that with no call" or he they assaulted him on that play" etc. etc. Then, I type it and it is poor taste?

the refs my change the game with there calls.

We agree on that point Baller

Now Longballer, honestly... From quarters 1-3 I had NOTHING to ***** at BUT the Jazz's careless play because the officiating was pretty even... (however, aside from the 1st quarter, I think they played good during the 2nd and 3rd quarters), But in the 4th quarter it seemed like it didn't matter what we did, the calls went against us or there were non calls when our guys got hammered in the paint... How can you get into ANY rhythm with that going on??

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Agreed on all points here. In fact, at half time my daughter asked me if the refs were making Jazz lose and I said no they were calling it even and the Lakers were just out playing the Jazz. That changed 210% in the 4th quarter.

[GridironJazzVike]

Originally Posted by CougarRebel

Why? We hear announcers, players and coaches say things all the time like "he got killed on that with no call" or he they assaulted him on that play" etc. etc. Then, I type it and it is poor taste?




We agree on that point Baller


>>


Agreed on all points here. In fact, at half time my daughter asked me if the refs were making Jazz lose and I said no they were calling it even and the Lakers were just out playing the Jazz. That changed 210% in the 4th quarter.

And the bigger shame was is that we were outplaying the Lakers in the 2nd half or at the very least matching their intensity... We had some trouble getting shots to fall but we were getting good looks and executing our offense...

It hurts to lose a game this way... Because the Jazz fought back and it still didn't matter...